Episodio 4

Cia: Welcome to Employee Activation, the HR podcast that takes you into the minds of some of the world's brightest workforce strategists to find out how they make both their employees, and their organisations thrive. My name is Cia Kouparitsas, and in today's episode, we're going to speak with the world leader in skills-based hiring. Now, over the past couple of years, we've really seen the notion of skills-based hiring take off, largely due to a recognition that it's skills, not necessarily degrees, that makes a candidate highly valuable to an organisation.

Those already doing skills-based hiring spruik a range of benefits from lower hiring costs, increased diversity, reduced time to hire and greater employee engagement. But changing the long incumbent norms of recruitment can be a tough sell to leadership or team managers who just want fresh talent now. So how do you actually implement skills-based hiring in a practical sense and get the buy-in across all levels to make that shift?

Joining me today is Craig Drysdale, the Vice President of Talent and Engagement at Leonardo UK, a global defence prime specialising in aerospace, defence and security. Welcome, Craig.

Craig: Hi Cia, thanks for having me.

Cia: Our pleasure. Now, Leonardo has been a true early adopter of this skills-based hiring model and one of the greatest champions of our business WithYouWithMe and our own skills-based model over a number of years.

We've worked together on quite a few projects to bring in skills-based tech talent for Leonardo from cybersecurity, software engineering, and even firmware. But Craig, I'm really eager to understand what first drew you to this model as an organisation.

Craig: Yeah, thanks. I think as an organisation, particularly in the UK, Leonardo is always on the lookout for technical skills and people that are just willing to learn. And the partnership with WithYouWithMe was a really good introduction for Leonardo to be able to really embed that model. Because as you said, we have traditional ways of recruiting, where we will look for experience. But we've come to the conclusion that by following those traditional routes, we just can't meet the demand within the business.

So, we began the partnership within our cyber team and must be perfectly honest, the sort of HR team and the senior management team really bought into the idea really quickly. And that's really what sort of took us down this the start of the journey.

Cia: So Craig, when we're talking about skills-based hiring, it can mean many different things to many people. I think the term is a little bit ambiguous because it's so broad. What does skills-based hiring mean to you at Leonardo?

Craig: So, skills-based hiring for us is a sort of evolution of what probably in the past were like competency frameworks. So particularly within our engineering and technical roles, we have fairly well-defined competency frameworks where people understand the skills they need and the levels within them.

What a skills first approach allows us to do is to really put that front and centre. So, we're looking purely at those skills as opposed to looking at experience. And for us, that's really important because that's how we work with people. That's how we develop people when they join the organisation. So just helps us put that the front end when we're looking for people to join Leonardo or looking more at those skills and those competencies as opposed to say after a number of years of experience which whilst that has its benefits, the skills-based approach allows us to tap into a market which is much broader, much more diverse.

Cia: That's a great explanation. And I think what's really interesting is when you look at something from a skills-based perspective right from the start, you sort of touched on how that can evolve over time with the professional development of the person. If they come in with a set of skills, it's that constant evolution of what skills do they need for the next role or the next job and being able to kind of lean into that as an organisation and shift to that entire skills-based model.

Craig: Yeah, I think that's true. I think the other thing to consider is that the skills required to do jobs is constantly evolving. Probably it's not changed ever as much now if you think about some of the technological advances. Obviously, I'm sure you've talked to lots of people about the importance of AI nowadays. So those skills are always changing. So actually, what we looked at as an organisation even two years ago is different to what we look for now.

So, it just totally makes sense to be making sure that those skills are the focus and that they'll change. And that's right, that they'll change. And that's how people learn. That's how people develop. That's how we as an organisation build sort of stronger technical skills, stronger technical functions.

Cia: I love it, Craig, and I think you hit the nail on the head. You know, many organisations out there often talk about adopting skills-based hiring, but it can be a struggle to shake off that traditional approach, the things you mentioned, like, you know, a candidate needing to demonstrate a certain number of years' experience or a particular degree. So how did you actually make that model work in a practical sense?

Craig: So, in a practical sense, it was really driven from the cyber team. So, the cyber team looked at the types of skills that they were needing and really came to that conclusion that they could meet that demand in a slightly different way. Within the defence industry, we have lots of requirements in terms of security and that again shrinks the talent pool that we can access in the UK.

So, we're always on the lookout to try and expand that talent pool and obviously skills-based hiring is a great way to do that because you don't need to look for people that have followed a more traditional career route. You can look at people that have done maybe something slightly different, maybe they've had a gap in their career or they've decided to try something else but they still have those fundamental skills to be successful in Leonardo and I think most importantly that drive to learn and to develop themselves is really key in skills-based learning and thankfully so far with the people that we've got that's definitely shown through.

Cia: Yeah, definitely. And did you find because you've been a champion of this program from the start and this way of thinking, and I know many HR leaders understand the value, did you find it was difficult to convince, you know, hiring managers or line managers to hire someone based off skills when perhaps they might be used to, you know, always going for a grad or they might see it as a little bit risky. How is that for you?

Craig: So, I think it's mixed. In an organisation like Leonardo, we have lots of hiring managers. We have lots of different areas of the business that operate slightly independently, so they've all got their different ways of working. But the good thing is, with such a large organisation, you can always try and find those champions. So those people, and it doesn't have to be everybody from day one, and I think that's what we've learned, that not everybody is going to feel quite so passionately about this as an option.

But if you can find those people that do and those people that understand effectively to be able to build their teams out, they're going to have to look at different recruitment methods, different ways of looking at talent, both externally and internally. If you get a couple of them on board, which is what we've focused on, then the success almost speaks for itself beyond that.

Cia: Something I think that's really interesting you guys have done is rather than waiting for an individual role to come up and just making an ad hoc hire, you've tended to find demand in pockets and have teams of people that are stepping into an organisation on a skills-based hiring model. How and why do you think that's worked for you guys?

Craig: So, I think the cohort model works for us because we're able to support people as a group. So, because it's relatively new to Leonardo within the last couple of years, we felt that having that having that group was better experience for them and also allowed us to learn quicker than taking people on an individual basis.

Because, again, with an organisation of Leonardo's size and scale, having lots of disparate pockets probably wouldn't have led to the optimal outcome. We've looked at those people in terms of groups and we're in that position where the demand is always going to be there. So actually, trying to scale a little bit quicker than looking for ones and twos we felt was the right model for us.

Cia: Yeah, and you mentioned this idea of a cohort model, which brings me to something I'm keen to ask about, which is how this kind of skills-based hiring model, so hiring someone for the skills, the technical skills that they've learned, as opposed to the prior experience and qualification.

How does that sit in your organisation alongside something like a grad program? Because I think many organisations have grad programs and they kind of tick that box for their entry level talent. But it is a very different approach to a grad program and often you're getting someone mid-career with a host of other skills, particularly soft skills, that many grads just haven't yet cultivated. So how do your two programs compare and how do you make them work side by side?

Craig: Yeah, that's a really good question. We see it in sort of three main areas, actually. So yeah, we take on hundreds of people every year in early careers programs, whether that be apprentices, degree apprentices, graduates. We've also then got our sort of professional recruitment. So that's our recruitment of typical roles. And in both of those areas, we've seen the STEM, so science, technology, engineering and mathematics roles grow substantially over the last couple of years.

And where we place skills-based hiring is kind of in the middle of both of them. So, we've got the early careers programmes which we can do at scale, bring in people and they begin their career with us and they typically do really well and stay. We've then got our professional hiring which is we have a requirement in this project, can we please fill it.

And we've placed skills-based hiring sort of in the middle of both because as you say, you've got people that have got the underlying capability, but they've got different experiences. And that can be good for our organisation because actually bringing fresh thinking from adjacent markets or from people that have maybe does it have the ability to ask some of the questions that people wouldn't if they typically worked in our organisation for a long time. So that's where we place it. We sort of place it in the middle of our early careers hiring and our professional hiring, ultimately to grow the overall capacity.

Cia: So interesting. Now, obviously, Leonardo is doubling down on this program. You mentioned you've been doing it for a couple of years, and I know together we're looking to bring on around 60 potentially new people through skills-based hiring. What are the kind of benefits that you've seen as a result of this model in your workforce?

Craig: Possibly we've been lucky, but I must say that the people themselves that come in really drive the business case for this. We've been really fortunate. The people that joined our cyber team back in 2023, sorry, maybe 2022 actually, they've now all successfully completed their pathway, and they are now employees. So, we hired every single one of them. They've done fantastic. They're high performing employees. So, a lot of the credit is actually down to them. That's what drives the demand. Other people hear about what's happening. They then want to get involved themselves.

And I think the other thing that we've done since implementing the first Squad is we've worked really closely with the senior leaders within the technical areas to build out career pathways.

So, the career pathways are really beneficial to our employees because we benefit from that external look at what are the types of skills that we need how do we build them for the future so it's great for our employees but it also provides that sort of guardrail for people joining us on skills-based hiring approaches because we've got a pathway which is the best of sort of external best practice and what we would typically look for development internally and then it gives that person who might not have all that experience the confidence that if they learn these skills then they're in the right, they're sort heading in the right direction.

Cia: I love that. And I'm really eager to dig into this human side a little bit more, Craig, because you're right, it's what the individuals bring from a holistic perspective to an organisation that makes them so valuable. Are there any particular stories from any of the individuals or people that you'd like to shine a spotlight on in terms of the interesting career pathways that have brought them to Leonardo?

Craig: Well, again, looking at the cyber squad, it's difficult to pick out one of the squad because they've all done fantastically in their roles. But I think, as you said, we have had people, and particularly within that squad, that have no defence experience. And that does bring a bit of a risk to it. But I think with the support of both WithYouWithMe, and those career pathways, that really allows them to focus on building their defence knowledge while making the best use of the skills they've got before.

So, we've had people from very adjacent industries like the police force. We've had people that work in bars. Not that there's anything wrong with working in bars. I quite enjoy going to a bar from time to time.

But those people would just not follow would not come through our early careers path or that professional recruitment. And I think that's the that's a really strong case for looking at skills-based hiring, is that you tap into talent pools in a market that just doesn't exist if we look to our traditional recruitment methods.

Cia: Yeah, and I think that diversity of thought, of experience, of background that you're bringing into the organisation by the very nature of that approach starts to become a real competitive difference for the organisation because we all know that diverse teams do better. And if you're hiring through that same way, you're not going to build that diversity in teams. So, it's great to hear it's working so well for you in that regard.

Do you have any practical advice for organisations who want to adopt a skills-based hiring program or model, but they don't know where to start. What would you suggest?

Craig: I think what we've learned is to start small. Look at areas that there is the demand, first of all. As I said before, we've really benefited from the cohort model because we've been able to make a bigger impact quicker. But certainly, from our experience, it's all about trial. I was going to say trial and error, but so far so good. We've actually not had any errors.

But it is a very different approach and if you've got people that have recruited and thought of talent in one way, probably for their whole careers, this is a different way of thinking. It's a different way of thinking, it's a different support model. So, starting in an area where you've got that champion and not going too big too quickly is definitely something which I think held us in good stead as we now look to roll out to multiple Squads in multiple parts of business.

Cia: Great advice. Now, the last question, and it's one that we ask all of our guests, what are your top tips for activating employees to help them realise their potential as well as aligning that potential and their aspirations with organisational goals?

Craig: Yeah, again, a really good question, and what we try to focus on, which I am a big sort of personal believer in, is that people should focus somewhat on what they're good at. I think there's been a tendency in the past to look at things like development areas where are things that actually might not be quite as good at. But that's inherent in everybody. Everybody has particular strengths. They have areas that they're not, they're not particularly good at. And that can be for a number of different reasons.

But what we find is we really encourage people to embrace those strengths. Because ultimately, if people are doing what they're good at, if they're doing what they enjoy, then again, we're in a fortunate position where we're able to offer those multiple career paths. So, we don't want to look at people and try and create everybody as exactly the same. If people focus on their strengths, if they're doing what they're good at, they'll perform well, they'll progress within Leonardo or any other organisation.

And that's what we are trying to get people to sort of focus on as an organisation. And I think that's a good approach.

Cia: Such a great approach, Craig, and I love it because it brings us back full circle to, I think, why this model and the skills based hiring has been so successful for you, which is that you look at the individuals, you look at what they're going to naturally excel at, and you give them the opportunity to learn those skills and to step into that role and be a really valuable contributor to an organisation like Leonardo, which is just exceptional.

So, thank you so much for your time today and for sharing all of these wonderful tips with our listeners. For those listening, if you do want to learn more about some of the work that Leonardo has been doing with WithYouWithMe, we do have some case studies and individual skills-based hiring stories on our website, which is withyouwithme.com. Just look at the link for employee activation and you can access all of those. So, thank you again, Craig. We'll see you next time.

Craig: Thank you very much.