Episode 6

Cia: Welcome to Employee Activation, the HR podcast that takes you into the minds of some of the world's brightest workforce strategists to find out how they make both their employees, and their organisations thrive. When we think about the role of the HR function, there's the bread-and-butter stuff like recruitment, onboarding, providing benefits, learning and development. But then there's this other, less tangible aspect that's not always a specific program, but it's arguably one of the most important pieces to get right.

And that's about truly understanding your people, what's important to them, what makes them tick, and how your organisation can encourage and support them to do their best. I'm Cia Kouparitsas, and today I'm talking to Michela Browne, a business psychologist who's held global roles at Canon Australia, McDonald's, Korn Ferry, Cochlear and now QBE Insurance. And while Michela really has done it all when it comes to HR, the part of her career that has really fascinated me the most is the People Insights piece.

Michela has a Bachelor of Psychology from the University of Western Sydney and a Masters of Org Psych from Macquarie University, and her career has been about using that expertise to support and motivate individuals to bring their best selves to work. And I cannot wait to get stuck into that today. Welcome Michela.

Michela: Hi Cia, lovely to see you today.

Cia: Yes, I am so excited to have you here. And I've just given you the cliff’s note version of your career. But I thought maybe to start off, it might be good for you just to tell us a little bit about your journey and your words, and especially about the fantastic role and organisation you find yourself in today.

Michela: Absolutely. So I started my career now almost 20 years ago. And I wanted to study psychology, and I was always really fascinated by what makes people tick and really keen to understand a little bit more about who they are, how they bring themselves to their work, to their lives. And that's where I did my undergrad in psychology, and then very quickly realised that there was a whole other branch of psychology which focused on organisations.

And given we spend so much of our lives at work, I really was curious around this. And how do we apply psychology within an organisational context, and how do we help our people really understand themselves, the environments that they thrive in, what makes them tick, what energises them so that they can have really fulfilling careers, but also so that we can help organisations have a high performing workforce.

So that's how I got into organisational psychology. I started out in consulting, at the ripe old age of 23, and very quickly realised that the clients I was working with, I really didn't understand the problems that they were trying to solve. So that's when I went internal and spent the next, quite a few years working in internal talent and leadership development roles.

And then for the last ten years or so, I've been in a range of global roles. So I've been lucky enough to experience roles that branch over across different continents, different cultures, different customs and different priorities. And I really think, you know, back to my desire to really deeply understand people. It's been really great to sort of see again the similarities, but also the unique differences and how do organisations need to think about that as they have a global footprint.

And so, recently I've just stepped into a broader, generalist role. So moving away from the talent in leadership into a broader HR generalist role. So currently I'm the GM for People Business Partnering Advisory and Health at QBE. And that really looks after our people, business partners as well as our wellbeing, work, health, safety and our employment relations.

Cia: That's fantastic Michela. And I'm really curious to come back a bit later to some of those experiences working across different geographies and cultures and how that impacts motivation. But where I would love to start is, you've mentioned, you know, this idea of engagement and motivation that an organisation builds within its workforce, and it obviously isn't something that just happens.

It's something you have to really think about, strategise on. And in your case, you're also bringing the psychology into it. So talk to me about what has your career in terms of your studies and your background in org psych brought to the way that you approach talent management and development within these, you know, huge global companies?

Michela: Yeah, it's a really good question. So I think one of the things that I've observed with talent management practices is that it often focuses on manager, I guess, impressions, perspectives, possibly biases. And so where my background in org psych has been really helpful is how do we bring a bit of data and objectivity into talent discussions and talent identification. So how do we use things like psychometric assessments or have conversations with people to really give us multiple data points so that when we're thinking about the talent in an organisation, we're taking a really holistic view of who our people are and understanding not just what the organisation needs and what a manager's perspective is, but also what are the things that are important for our people. So, what are their motivations? What are their ambitions? How do they approach problem solving and critical analysis? What are their behavioural preferences and how do we think about that in terms of the different pathways that they might have, and also the different types of potential that we might have in organisations?

So one of the things that we've been working on is how do we think about potential a little bit differently and taking a little bit more of a broader view around potential, thinking that, you know, potential is fluid, it changes over time, and everyone has potential, but the potential for what might be different. So one of the things that I really don't like about some of the existing talent management frameworks is when we talk about concepts like high potential, low potential, no potential, at potential.

And that can be a really demotivating experience for people, particularly for organisations who want to be a bit more transparent around their talent practices. The how do we reframe these concepts in ways that encourages growth and development, as well as recognising the different types of talent? So, for example, we tend to think a lot about potential being really for that leadership, that executive track.

And we absolutely need to be thinking about that pipeline. But a lot of organisations also need to be thinking about their specialist or their technical pipeline as well. So how do we start to better understand these different types of talent and also then build that into the different supporting HR practices, like our job architecture. Like a reward system, so that we're recognising those different career paths and tracks and providing those opportunities for people as well.

So that ultimately results in better organisational performance plus a more engaged workforce, because they're doing the types of things that they really love doing. And it's going to bring the best out of themselves.

Cia: So great to hear that, Michela. I know we're very aligned in how we see the value of potential at WithYouWithMe as well. For those in the HR sector who maybe don't have that same background in psychology, what are some of the practical ways that they could be drawing on or researching on from the psychology perspective, to try and build that understanding if their people, which we know impacts things like motivation and retention.

Michela: That's a really good question. And I think there's a range of different ways that people can kind of get across that. But it's as simple as just taking a moment to think about not just what people can do and the experience that people have had, but how they do it and who makes them who that who they are.

So, and I think it's something that's applicable not just for HR, but also just for people leaders in general. And it's taking that time just to think about, okay, I'm looking at someone's CV here and it's telling me what they've done, but it gives me no information about how they went about doing it, what environments help them to really thrive and achieve those, those great things that are on their CV.

What environments might not bring out the best? So, it's just stopping to take a bit of a, I guess, a litmus test in terms of those interpersonal components and how people show up and what's important for them, and using that as a data point to help inform a lot of the other, activities that come off the back of it as well.

Cia: Listening to you talk about potential as well, I know in my experience, a lot of the organisations that we deal with, you have HR leaders who very much understand the importance of potential and looking at the holistic version of someone in terms of not what they've necessarily done before, but what they might be capable of in future. Yet traditional systems of employment and requirements, things like university degrees, can sometimes hold that thinking back, what's your experience been there?

Michela: So in terms of thinking differently about the types of people that we're bringing into the organisation, and looking at more than just what people have done, there's a range of different ways that HR Leaders can support people leaders in doing this, which includes helping them to understand the motivations and experiences of people and what's important for them during the interview process.

But we've also used psychometric assessments quite extensively across our recruitment processes. And that's a really great way to help give people leaders, some really tangible data and insights to help think differently around, what people bring beyond their CV in their experiences. We also spent a fair bit of time thinking about success profiles. What does it take and what is required to be successful in certain roles beyond just what people have done?

What are the personal attributes, the characteristics, all of those different things just to help articulate for people leaders, these are the different pieces and components. And that's actually a really wonderful tool for our people as well, because it helps to give them a sense of, what do I bring that's going to help me succeed. Where are the gaps that I might need to close, or where are the things that I might just need to be conscious of because I prefer to behave in this way.

But actually, this role requires me to behave this way. And is that okay for me? Or what might I need to do to adjust to that? The other thing I think that's also, really important is just helping our people leaders to see those examples of success. So when we have been able to take a bit of a, I guess, a punt on someone and taken a bit of a chance, they might not be the first choice or the most logical choice, but let's just sort of see, hey, here's an example where we've thought more holistically about this individual and look at how they're going. So helping bring those examples and those measures of success and those great news stories to our leaders and encouraging them to, to take that chance. Working in insurance, that's a really tricky one. We're a somewhat conservative industry. So, taking people risk is something that we need to do slowly. And having those proof points really helps.

Cia: Yeah. As you said, it's data driven. It's just a different type of data. So it's, changing that mind shift. Now, you've worked in a lot of global companies - McDonald's, Korn Ferry and now QBE. And you mentioned before you've had workforces that are spread across different geographies, different cultures, but also different divisions. You know, some of the people you're working with are head office. So you're marketing and ops, for example. And then, I'm sure in all of your various roles you've had people working in hospitality, retail roles, and they’d all have vastly different motivations and experiences.

So, what are some of the challenges, I guess, you faced as a leader, trying to make engagement programs work at scale across a diverse workforce? And how have you addressed those?

Michela: Yeah it's a really good question, and one that I've definitely experienced because the majority of my experience has been sort of on that, looking at how do we roll out global initiatives and we have to have a balance. So for us it's around how do we identify what are those components that really need to be globally consistent, that we need to hold really tight and we need to make sure that everyone aligns to, because it sort of helps us with that common organisational purpose. And insight that we're trying to to get a better grasp on. But then we also need to allow for some local flex. So we need to be able to think about what is that specific market? What are they facing into, what are the challenges, what are the people priorities? Certain cultures view engagement and even surveys in really different ways. And we need to be mindful that they're going to respond to those questions in different ways.

So how do you identify what are those core components that we all need to sort of align on, and then have that flex. And similarly with the output, and when we talk about engagement specifically, I think it's around how do we think about what is a common thread that we are seeing in terms of the results across the organisation that we all need to mobilise on and to address, as well as giving that local nuance so that people can put plans in place to address those local pieces.

Because I think if you go with a blanket, one size fits all approach, you just lack the buy-in, people will really quickly turn away and say they don't really understand what I'm talking about, what this means for me. So I think it's really important that even for those global initiatives and global themes that we're going after, there's opportunity for local plans and local implementation around those plans.

Cia: Absolutely. Now I just want to change tack for a second and talk about the future of work. So we're coming into this period that we know is going to be very challenging. The world of work is changing. There's new technologies coming into the workforce, and most organisations are going through some sort of digital transformation. And this is obviously something that at WithYouWithMe, we see and hear every day from our customers around the world.

How are you making sure that your people skills are evolving in line with the company needs and the direction? I'm really keen to understand how QBE is tackling it and particularly how do you help employees stay motivated during these periods of change?

Michela: Yeah, it's a really good question and definitely one that we're grappling with, as is the entire insurance industry. The role of insurance is changing at pace. And how we do our business is changing at pace. So for us, I think it's around how do we help normalise change. Change can feel really unsettling for our people, and particularly when we're facing into challenging economic environments as well. There's that uncertainty and that instability. So what we're doing is really starting to focus more on skills.

So historically we thought about roles and progression and upwards progression. And now we're sort of really unpacking that to think about, well, what are the skills that are needed in each role, and what are the skills that I as an individual bring. And how do we bring this together so that we can align our people to leverage those skills, to grow those skills?

And I think where we're also investing is in things like strategic workforce planning. So how do we identify the future workforce and the skills that we need in the future so that we can think about our current workforce and help them to either grow their skills or potentially reskill, so that they're continuing to feel like they have a career and a future ongoing.

It is a really challenging one. And I think it's how do we keep encouraging people to grow, really reinforcing the importance of self-directed career growth, ongoing learning and development, and just recognise that in order for us to be successful as an organisation, the organisation's going to need to change, and we're going to need to change with it.

Cia: Brilliant. And now the final question, and one that we ask of our guests, what is your top tip for activating your employees and aligning their aspirations with organisational goals?

Michela: I think for us, at least at QBE, we're very big on being a purpose led organisation. And so if we can be really clear on what is our purpose as an organisation and why are we here and what is the value that we are planning to deliver, and then helping our people align individually to that.

So if they can see individually, what is my role and how am I contributing to that organisational purpose, that helps them to get a sense of clarity and meaning and purpose around the work that they're doing? And I think the other thing is as well, is just making sure that we are setting up, the different types of talent that is needed across different times, so that we're building a sustainable pipeline for the future and really making sure that we're supporting our people in adjusting and adapting to that so that they can then start to align their ambitions, their skills into a constantly growing and evolving workforce. And I think that's actually a really exciting, journey to be a part of at the moment.

Cia: Absolutely. I agree completely, and I've just thoroughly enjoyed this chat, Michela, and in particular how you are approaching your employee engagement to help them grow in the direction the company needs. It aligns so well with the thinking we have, which is that when an individual's career aspirations are aligned with organisational goals, both are going to thrive.

So thank you for being so generous today and sharing your experience and insights. For our listeners wanting any more details, into Michela's journey or the topic we've discussed today, please head to our website that's withyouwithme.com and search for our Employee Activation Podcast so you can access all of our free resources that are there around engaging and motivating employees across the end-to-end employee journey.

We’ll also have all of Michela's details, so you can get in touch with her if you want. Thank you again Michela. And we will see you all next time.